Blog Talk Radio - In The Country: Cyril Rawson – 28 April 2009

Cyril Rawson Interview with Dave Woods

MP3 Interview – http://www.blogtalkradio.com/dave-woods/2009/04/28/interview-with-cyril-rawson.mp3

Forward:

As an anorak case having discovered Elyse Saunders wonderful self titled debut last year I wanted to find out more having been impressed by the clean production and song arrangements. Noting the production and song writing credits I goggled “Cyril Rawson". I not only discovered that his songs have been recorded by some of the biggest names in Country music but some of my favourite songs too. ‘Secret’ an opening cut on Reba McEntire’s album ROOM TO BREATHE being one. Along with the magnificent ‘Keep Mom And Dad In Love’ on Lisa Brokop and Hal Ketchum’s albums, ‘She Walked Beside The Wagon’ (Lorrie Morgan – Greater Need CD) ‘‘Love Will’ (Tanya Tucker - FIRE TO FIRE CD) and He Ain't Even Cold Yet’ (Gretchen Wilson – All Jacked Up CD)

So it soon became obvious that with Elyse’s’ rich talent and the song writing prowess of Cyril this combination of experience and youth proved a winning formula. I was thrilled to find this interview archived on the In The Country website and its one of the best!

Interview:

250 songs of Rawson’s have been recorded in Canada, by artists such as Anne Murray, Alannah Myles ,Johnny Reid, Jason McCoy and Beverley Mahood – “Its something like that Dave, I think its around 250 and counting I hope’ joked Cyril when he joined Dave on the phone.

He had just returned from a writing trip in Nashville –“The town is changing like everything else in the industry, the economy is affecting it and everyone is feeling it a little bit. The song writing hasn’t changed its still the same old high and the same friends down there always trying to make good music, that makes all the bad stuff go away for a while anyway” says Cyril.

Dave asked what the process is like at a song writing session. Cyril said he tries to map out some ideas and take them with him when writing with people he has known for many years like Billy Lawson, Don Pfrimmer and Ron Harbin having a gut feeling for what they prefer and knowing their strengths. Often as not, those ideas are not used – “If somebody else has got something that hits them that day, that hits everybody right, then we go with that” he adds. It seems it’s not very often that 2 songs are completed in one session as things have got tougher and Cyril says “You need to spend a little more time. There are several songs I’ve spent 3 sessions on just to get the one song – Its not a race it’s what happens at the end of it, its got to be something that’s worthwhile”

Songs do happen quickly though. He mentioned writing with Gord Bamford and Bryon Hill on a trip when songs were written in just a couple of hours when ideas just worked out fast!

Dave asked if its still the same thrill having someone cut one of his songs when it’s resonated with them. “Absolutely that’s a big proportion about what this is all about, we all have to make money but we all know that every song we make doesn’t make much money, its just the way it is, it’s still a thrill” he agrees.

Is pitching songs tougher, is there more competition wonders Dave – “YES it really is you needn’t have gone any further” laughs Cyril. Its seems like the politics in music has got worse again and somewhat overwhelming due to poorer record sales, the artists themselves are needing to write the songs. Artists are now writing with their producers and if you’re not writing with the artist yourself it’s very hard to get involved with a project. Giving an example Cyril said he had just written with Richie McDonald (Of Lonestar fame) for his new solo album having sent him 6 songs. He showed some interest in one but Richie as a great writer will try and pen the songs himself. It seems it’s harder for a songwriter to get a foot in the door and have a song heard legitimately by someone who can make things happen.

Asking if working in Nashville is a requirement for a writer to be” nearer the action”. Cyril explains you need to go there in order to establish some contacts so people know a face and they get to understand that you’re taking the craft seriously but he doesn’t feel you have to live there. He pitches songs everyday on the Internet to people he has met. His advice is to have some discretion when pitching to acts - “As long as they are good songs, if it’s not right they’ll listen to another one, if you start sending bad songs you’re not going to get any answers back!”

Dave wondered if Cyril has felt he had a smash hit song on his hands and it was picked up quickly. There are times he said when you know a song is special, there’s a need to weed out the songs that are good and focus on the special ones, because average and good songs are going to have a hard time finding a home in the current environment with artists writing themselves.

Cyril read out a quote from a friend “There are 48 # 1’s a year and I only like 3 of them” so it’s all subjective. As a result when taking the time to produce a good work tape or demo having spent money on it, Cyril will give the song a chance, even if it’s not his favourite one.

Two or 3 way co-writing is quite common .The only 4 way writing session he was involved in came about on a trip to California with Nanci Simmons, Colleen Peterson and Alannah Myles– “Three great singers and 3 totally different personalities” says Cyril amusingly. The pluses and minuses can be the individual strengths of the 3 people but there’s also the politics surrounding publishers with 3 entities working a song and if someone doesn’t get the vibe it can be an uphill battle, compromise can write the heart out of a song – “You’ve got to let the song go, if someone is holding it back and you do compromise usually to me it not a real good sign” he shares.

Dave played ‘Just Some Love’ a song of Rawson’s written with Scott Phelps which was cut by Keith Urban & The Ranch. This came about when Cyril was signed as a staff writer to Anne Murray’s company Balmur Entertainment, LTD (founded 1972) by Max Hutchinson who is a song plugger in Nashville. Max lived next door to Keith, so Cyril met Keith and wrote some songs. He liked the song and recorded it. Up to 3 years ago it was still a part of a Keith Urban show! Speaking highly of Keith he said “He is a hard working guy, that band played everywhere and that he deserves to be where he is” This track was Keith’s last single from The Ranch album before he started his solo career –“unfortunately for me” chuckles Cyril

Dave asks - Do you remember writing your very first song?

He explains it was a song that Harry Hibbs (Newfoundland’s favorite son) recorded. He had a TV show called The Caribou Club and The Harry Hibbs Show . At the time Cyril was a guitarist trying to get gigs wherever he could and got hired to play on his show – "The first song I ever wrote he recorded and so did another artist called Michael T. Wall, and then the next 8 or 9 years nothing!” ...laughter – “I got a false sense of security there”

Cyril started writing in the late 70’s after doing session work in Toronto and playing guitar on The Ray Griff Show on Global called “Good Time Country” then onto the Harry Hibbs Show on CHCH Channel 11. Then gigging and working on the road followed as a member of a back-up band for Marie Bottrell and Ronnie Prophet. Song writing was more a curiosity for Rawson but he became hooked when he was involved with The Ray Griff Show. Drawing from a huge back catalogue Ray was doing his own material –“That really pulled me in, that this could be a great life” says Cyril

Dave wondered what Cyril influences were growing up and if there was anyone he tried to emulate. We learnt The Eagles were his hero’s and he wanted to write a song as good as a track on their Greatest Hits album ,also Fleetwood Mac but not necessarily country artists. In his younger years he was more into rockabilly (The Sonics) and R&B. It was via Ray Griff that Rawson developed his appreciation for country music and a respect for it, though it came out of necessity! Cyril still writes pop and rock songs, he says “There’s something about the integrity of a country lyric you just can’t beat, and it has to make sense, it’s the people’s music its very close to blues”

Speaking openly he said “I don’t think the music were hearing on radio is what it was. I think were going through a kind of downtime musically. Probably partially in my opinion and a lot of other writers in Nashville due to the fact that a lot of artists are writing their own material down there and their producer is getting in on that part of the action to make up for the money they’re not making selling records, and the bar is being lowered. If you think of songs like ‘If He Stopped Loving Her Today’, some of those real classics, we don’t have those now. One of the best songs I’ve heard in the last few years was ‘I’m Already There’ the Richie McDonald song, I thought that was a great song”

He also cited ‘I Hope You Dance’ and doesn’t think great songs are coming out of artists very often these days. Cyril says the writers in Nashville and Canada are not to blame for that –“We write what we have to write to survive, and we know if radio want ditties were going to write ditties, its just the way it is” He feels if you write something too deep radio won’t play it, so no one will near it anyway –“I think we’ve fallen into that trap of trying to make a living and we all become a victim of this part of the industry, were contributing to exactly what we complain about”

An example given was artists like Alan Jackson who have hung onto their roots but these kind of artists aren’t selling the huge numbers that were expected or the units that pop music is selling – “It’s a shame, they just won’t record the good stuff we write” laughs Cyril.

Reba McEntire’s track ‘Secret‘ was spun which Cyril co-wrote with Lisa Brokop and Ron Harbin – “When he wrote it we heard Reba all over it” he declares. The story was that Cyril was able to present it to Mike Sebastion a manager of Reba McEntire's Starstruck Writers Group, he loved it but sadly Reba didn’t record it. Years later before returning to Canada Cyril dropped off a copy of it in Buddy Cannon’s mailbox on

Grand Ave

in Nashville on his way out of town, about 4:30 on a Saturday morning. Two days later, Ron Harbin phoned Cyril to say that Reba was cutting it that morning. Buddy was one of the album’s producers. “That’s never ever happened in my life and I don’t expect it to happen again, that’s a pretty strange one, don’t be afraid to drop a CD off in someone’s mailbox, it could work” says Cyril.

Do you go into a writing session thinking in terms of a Martina McBride or George Strait type of song, enquires Dave. We heard he doesn’t consciously do it but he may have looked at a tip sheet for major artists looking out for particular songs. Sometimes a writer can be influenced by who is recording at a certain time - “I’d say the other halve of the time your just trying to write a great song that everyone is going to like. Sometimes people like Martina don’t want to hear a song that sound like themselves, they are looking for something fresh” he explains.

At the time of this interview Cyril was hoping he may get a cut with Kenny Chesney after writing with Ed Hill and Billy Lawson. Together they did a work tape having a little bit on an inside track on what he was looking for. Billy a friend of Kenny’s sent him an MP3 so there were hopes. Due to the history he has had Cyril would also like to get a cut with Keith Urban.

Strangely, the songs Cyril is most proud of haven’t been recorded. One a song called ‘Lost For Words’ he wrote with good friend Gary Bright from Toronto a keyboard player for Bryan Adams. He’s hoping it will finally find a home.

*** Regarding the do’s and don’ts of writing Cyril’s tips were :

a) Don’t be in a hurry, don’t think the songs finished when it isn’t

b) Don’t be afraid to rewrite

c) Don’t get your nose out of joint if someone doesn’t like the song, there’s a reason they don’t like it. Its not be taken personally but you have to step back and take another look it from a distance and give it some time.

d) If you do a demo and you’re convinced the song is finished, you don’t have to do a full blown demo. More and more people are taking that approach because of the state of the economy or as people have home studios.

e) For demos make sure you have a good singer and that sonically it sounds good and clean so everybody can hear everything. The singer has to be able to translate the song and move somebody, even if it’s just a piano or a guitar accompanying them, it doesn’t matter, it’s the singer that’s going to make the difference – “If you’re a pretty good singer yourself you might have to shove your ego to one side, I’m not, so I don’t have that problem. I always have to hire somebody “says Cyril.

He says there’s a sameness about going into any one of the great studio’s with all the great players in Nashville. If you don’t have something special that you can do to an arrangement it can sound like a 100 that they have demoed earlier that week – “That’s a trap you really have to be careful of. Those guys are so good and so quick that if they if you don’t give them direction..” he says. Explaining that it’s better to take the time to get it right and best to settle for 4 songs in a session than 6, even though cost is a penalty. When sitting in an A&R meeting and you go to play something for an artist, producer or label head you don’t want them to “shut it off” before they get passed the intro – “I’ve had that happen to me, that’s a terrible feeling, or before you get to the chorus, come on guys give me a chance, if the song isn’t moving them by them it doesn’t matter if it’s a full blown demo or somebody on a ukulele” he relates.

Dave wondered if a song you be made or broken at the studio production stage.

Cyril believes that songwriters in general are good producers if you have a love or a nag for it- “The majority of the songs I think that you’ve heard as hits, if you’ve heard the demo, it’s very similar”. On famed songwriter and friend Don Pfrimmer he says he doesn’t like going into the studio because he feels he’d be a hindrance not knowing anything about it but the majority on writers that Cyril knows do -They are proactive being “hands on”. Several songwriters have pro-tools rigs at home to do work tapes and pre-production before spending a lot of money on a track.

Some famed producers in Nashville put everything together in the studio hiring the players that they want, then oversee it but walk away and let an engineer handle things. On the other hand people like Byron Gallimore and Dan Huff, who work with stars like Faith Hill & Rascal Flatts, they are great guitar players and musicians, so like are very versatile – “They are not afraid to go out on a limb and set a trend rather than follow one, they have the smarts to do it and that is what makes a good producer” states Cyril.

A writer they can be right in the middle of a song and can hear the licks of a groove or the stops and can judge where sections need some sweetening and funky things and this becomes a part of the song its not just an arrangement at this point. Amusingly he continues “Then the producers who hear the demos, go Wow that’s a great idea - and they get all the credit for it, that’s the truth, unless you’ve give them a guitar vocal then they have to figure it out themselves”

Initially a producer picks the songs that are right for the artist. Then pre-production, hiring musicians, picking the right studio and engineer takes place and overseeing the entire arrangement and mix with the producer directing the final product. An independent producer would do all these things working with the artist developing them as best as possible, do all the work tapes and administer a whole project till you present them with a master copy which is the best product possible. Cyril would then say “Now get yourself a record deal cos’ I can’t do that for you” !

Dave listed some of the Independent up and coming artists Cyril has worked with in the last year including Michala Todd, Alyssa Morrissey and Elyse Saunders. As country acts we heard the projects for Alyssa and Elyse were originally conceived in Cyril’s home studio and then cut in Nashville in the traditional way. Both had songs on Larry Delaney’s CMN Chart with their first and second singles. Michala’s project was co-produced with John Acosta in Toronto which was mainly programmed with some acoustic and electric guitar add-ons having written all the songs together –“They’re all great kids to work with, all very enthusiastic and it was a lot of fun working with them” says Cyril.

Thanks to Cyril and Dave for such an informative incite into the role of a record producer !

Myspace - http://www.myspace.com/cyrilrawson